What’s Next For China’s Space Program?

IRA FLATOW: Hi. I’m Ira Flatow. You’re listening to Science Friday. Did you know that China has a very active space program, including a space station and rovers on the moon?

LING XIN: NASA’s Artemis program, it says we will go back to the moon this time to stay. So China has something similar in its mind.

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IRA FLATOW: Over the past few years, I have become really interested in the Chinese space program. They’ve launched complicated robotic moon missions. They’ve brought back samples of rock from the far side of the moon. And I’ve thought, if this was NASA doing this, we’d all be talking about it every other week. And now with big budget cuts proposed at NASA, is China going to become the global leader in space? Joining me now is Ling Xin, science reporter at the South China Morning Post. She’s based in Ohio. Welcome to Science Friday.

LING XIN: Thank you, Ira, for having me.

IRA FLATOW: China has some really interesting space missions. Let’s talk about it. Just this week, they released a picture from a spacecraft headed to an asteroid.

LING XIN: Yes. So that mission is the second in a series of deep space mission, which means beyond the moon. The first one was the Tianwen-1 Mars mission, which was very successful. China made it to the Mars surface in its first attempt to land on the red planet. And now this is the second one, Tianwen-2. Actually, it’s a very time consuming mission.

The entire thing is going to take 10 years. It has two major goals. First of all, it’s going to bring back samples from an asteroid. That’s going to take about three years. And after that, the main spacecraft will use the Earth’s gravity for a slingshot and begin a seven-year journey to comet 311P, an object in the solar system’s asteroid belt known for shedding dust in multiple tails.

IRA FLATOW: Wow. That is some mission. I know the Chang’e lunar missions have also been impressive with landers and rovers. And there’s that sample return mission. Does China have a roadmap here, an overall idea of where it’s headed?

LING XIN: Yes. China’s Lunar Exploration Program started in the 1990s. It was actually first proposed by a geologist. So it was proposed as a series of science missions sending robotic uncrewed spacecraft to do scientific exploration of the moon. So it was designed in a very step by step way. First of all, you do an orbit of the moon. And then you try to land on the moon. And then you try to bring samples back.

And China planned it well enough to have a backup mission for each of this stage. For instance, Chang’e 2 was a backup of Chang’e 1 in case Chang’e 1 fails. But if Chang’e 1 succeeds, Chang’e 2 will be assigned to do something else. So China has completed all these six missions so far with zero failure.

IRA FLATOW: So they eventually want to land on the moon with humans, send people there?

LING XIN: Yes. Yes. Actually, they are working towards this. I believe they are already making the flight models of everything from the lander to the astronaut suits. And the Chinese government has said multiple times that they are on track to land Chinese astronauts on the moon’s surface by 2030, if not earlier.

IRA FLATOW: And then eventually Mars, perhaps?

LING XIN: The government hasn’t said anything specifically about a crewed mission to Mars. But China is working on bringing back rock samples from Mars.

IRA FLATOW: Yeah. NASA just said they just canceled their return mission of these Mars samples, so maybe China will get there first.

LING XIN: It’s really a shame because you’ve done such a good job collecting all the samples. And China’s approach will be very different from NASA’s approach. China will just select one landing site, and just touch down, and maybe deploy a lander and then a rover and just sample in that area, and then grab and go.

IRA FLATOW: Grab and go?

LING XIN: It’s like the different varieties of samples collected by NASA all over all these years.

IRA FLATOW: Yeah. I know. NASA samples will stay there. We talk a lot about the International Space Station. But as I said before, China has its own space station. And there’s another one planned for near the moon, right?

LING XIN: Yes. There’s not much official information about it, but it’s very similar to NASA’s Lunar Gateway. So the space station will be orbiting the moon as a bridge between Earth, moon, and deeper space.

IRA FLATOW: And the long term goal of this is that it would be international, like countries, other countries joining in?

LING XIN: The lunar space station thing is a little bit far. Right now, they are working on the research base, probably in the South Pole region of the moon, very similar to what the US has planned. And this is actually also an international effort. A lot of people compare that to the Artemis Accords. But this one is led by China and Russia. Russia will be providing the nuclear power for the station. Between 10 and 20 countries and organizations have already signed on to the China-led moon base program already.

IRA FLATOW: How is China’s space program organized? I mean, is there an equivalent of NASA, one main organizing body?

LING XIN: No, no. NASA is the one that handles everything related to civilian space. But China does not have a equivalent of NASA. China’s space program is top-down, government led, but there is a split between uncrewed and crewed mission. The uncrewed civilian missions are managed by an organization called China National Space Administration, CNSA, which does all these lunar robotic missions, and satellites, and international collaboration. However, all the manned thing, for instance, the Tiangong Space Station, is run by the military. So this agency is called China Manned Space Agency. And it reports to China’s top military body.

IRA FLATOW: One thing that I have never understood– I mean, I watched it happen– is that the US is barred by law from collaboration with the Chinese space program, isn’t it?

LING XIN: Yes. So a lot of people the Wolf Amendment, which was proposed by a Republican representative from Virginia, Wolf, in 2011 that bars NASA from working directly bilaterally with China on space projects, unless Congress gives special approval. But there is something else that is less known, which is called ITAR. ITAR is a US export control law that restricts sharing of any technology with potential military use, including a lot of space components.

IRA FLATOW: Some of the things that China is doing, the US has already done. Are there missions that are really just Chinese firsts?

LING XIN: Yes. I would say, for instance, when China was doing the two lunar far side missions, they did some kind of first by putting in relay satellites in the Earth moon space. So these satellites need to “see,” quote, unquote. OK? –see the Earth and also the far side of the moon at the same time. And such satellites, they just relay data between the Earth and the far side of the moon. And they are seen as a critical space infrastructure. So this second one that China put in for the very complicated Chang’e 6 mission and also the forthcoming lunar base project, it is very powerful. It can actually support 10 spacecraft on the lunar far side at the same time.

IRA FLATOW: Wow. Of course, they’re also the first to have that sample return from the far side of the moon too.

LING XIN: Yes. Scientifically, that’s really, really unique because we know Apollo samples come to how many, 380 something kilograms? But all of those are from the near side.

IRA FLATOW: Yeah. It would be like going to the US desert and thinking you got a good sample of what the Earth looks like in one spot. And of course, the Chinese are operating a telescope. They were the first to put a telescope on the surface of the moon for what, a decade?

LING XIN: Yes. That actually got onto the moon. It was the Chang’e 3 mission. It’s a very small telescope with a 50 millimeter aperture. But it is the first one. And it has actually worked for more than 10 years.

IRA FLATOW: Do you have a sense of how much China budgets for its space operations?

LING XIN: We know very little about that. NASA needs to be transparent with its budget. But a large part of China’s space mission has to do with the military. So the scientists who first initiated the Chang’e lunar program once mentioned that the Chang’e 1 mission actually only cost 200 million yuan, which was the cost to dig 1 kilometer of metro tunnel in Beijing. So he meant to say that it’s really not that expensive. But that is the only reliable number about budget we know so far.

IRA FLATOW: Yeah. It must be challenging for you as a reporter to learn about this when so much of the work is kept secret. It must be frustrating.

LING XIN: Yeah. This withhold of information is really, really challenging, including the Tianwen-2 spacecraft you just mentioned. Until this moment, we still don’t know how the spacecraft looks like, the size and how heavy it is because somehow, they decided to publish mission profile only after a mission is successful.

IRA FLATOW: Let’s finish up by talking about some of the missions that we should keep an eye on. Tell us about some of them, please.

LING XIN: OK. So NASA’s Artemis program, it says we will go back to the moon this time to stay. So China has something similar in its mind. [? It eyes ?] to build a base and all the infrastructure to live and work from the moon. So what we can look at is next year, they are going to launch the Chang’e 7 mission. And that mission will include a hopper, which will jump to the bottom of craters in the South Pole region to look for water, ice, which can be used for life support and making rocket fuels and stuff.

And then in 2028, they are going to launch the Chang’e 8 mission and will attempt something no one else has done before, which is to build the first brick on the moon. It will test whether local lunar soil can be turned into construction material and whether those bricks can be assembled into real structures.

IRA FLATOW: Wow. I’m visioning down the road a 3D printer on the moon printing out these bases.

LING XIN: That’s definitely one way to go. Yeah. There is actually a community of hundreds of Chinese scientists working on these things, which will eventually lead to the Chinese moon base.

IRA FLATOW: Well, I want to thank you for taking time to be with us today. It has been a fascinating discussion about a lot of Chinese space stuff very few of us, I think, are very aware of. Thank you, Ling Xin, science reporter at the South China Morning Post based in Ohio. Thank you for taking time to be with us today.

LING XIN: Thank you very much.

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IRA FLATOW: After the break, seeing the night sky in a new way with your fingers.

DEAN REGAS: You can not only see the outlines of the constellations, but you can feel the stars and feel the constellations with these upraised tactile parts.

IRA FLATOW: Stick around.

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IRA FLATOW: Another way to look at space is with your fingers with a tactile astronomy book for the visually impaired. Astronomer Dean Regas joins us. He’s the author of All About Orion. Welcome back, Dean.

DEAN REGAS: Oh. Glad to be here.

IRA FLATOW: Nice to have you. From the title, I’m guessing, this is a book about constellations?

DEAN REGAS: Yeah. So the book, All About Orion, well, we’re going to be talking about the mythology behind this famous constellation, how to find it in the sky, some of his friends, his other constellations like Taurus and Scorpius, and then some deep space objects. But the twist on this is that it’s actually tactile. So you can not only see the outlines of the constellations, but you can feel the stars and feel the constellations with these upraised tactile parts.

IRA FLATOW: And is it aimed at any age group?

DEAN REGAS: Well, as most of my books go, they’re supposed to be for kids, but they’re always sneaky for adults too. So I always throw in a lot of stuff for all ages, but mostly for elementary, middle, even high school. But I think adults are going to have a lot of fun with it too.

IRA FLATOW: All right. Tell us about the mechanics of a tactile book. How does that work?

DEAN REGAS: Well, so I partnered with a local publisher here in Cincinnati called Clovernook. And they’re the Clovernook Center for the Blind and Visually Impaired. And they do mostly reprints of books in braille. And they came up with this idea that they wanted to make a new book themselves specifically for that audience. And I had this idea of doing a touch the constellations book.

And it just came together. And so we’ve got a couple versions. One of them is large print with tactile constellations, where you can feel the outlines of them. And you can feel the outlines of things like the Orion Nebula and the Horsehead Nebula. And then there’s another version where it’s complete braille over top of text. So it’s really for people that are sighted and with visual impairments that they can read together.

IRA FLATOW: So constellations aren’t just the shapes. You have stars of different brightness or different color, right? I mean, is that information you can convey through touch?

DEAN REGAS: WE can with the star brightnesses. There’s a key that goes with it. So the bigger the circles that you can feel, the brighter the stars are out there. And of course, one of the big hits is talking about the star Betelgeuse, which is one of the super massive stars in our galaxy. And there’s even a scale representation of Betelgeuse versus the sun that you can see and touch.

IRA FLATOW: Well, I can’t let you go without you giving us some idea of some sky highlights coming up this summer. What might we be looking out for?

DEAN REGAS: Well, I am sorry to say, Orion is not one of those things. In the summer sky, Orion kind of hides behind the sun, so we won’t see him up there. But we will see the constellation that in mythology killed Orion, Scorpius. The scorpion is the big one that starts coming up in the Southern sky after dark and has a wealth of really great night sky objects. If you look towards the South, you see Scorpius. You see Sagittarius. And that is where the heart of the Milky Way is. That is what the summer season is for. You can see lots of star clusters, lots of nebulas, and lots of stars over there.

IRA FLATOW: How about planets?

DEAN REGAS: Well, we got a planet drought in the evening sky. All the big planets are out of the way. Mars is still hanging around, faintly shining in the evening sky. But Venus is the big one in the morning, also Saturn there too. So for you early risers, you’re greeted to the day with Venus.

IRA FLATOW: Well, we’ll have to just do with that until we can have you back on and talk more about the next sky showing. Thank you, Dean. And good luck with the book.

DEAN REGAS: Absolutely. Keep looking up.

IRA FLATOW: Astronomer Dean Regas, author of All About Orion and host of the Looking Up podcast.

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That’s about all the time we have for now. A lot of people helped make this show happen.

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IRA FLATOW: I’m Ira Flatow. Thanks for listening.

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