Asha de Vos’ Journey From Deck Hand To Marine Science Leader

FLORA LICHTMAN: Hey, it’s Flora Lichtman, and you’re listening to Science Friday.

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Today we’re headed to the waters off of Sri Lanka, a tropical island off the coast of India. There you will find a population of blue whales that behaves unlike any other in the world. They stay put while every other population we know of migrates.

ASHA DE VOS: Not everyone has the privilege of saying that a floating pile of whale poop was where their career kick started, but it’s pretty good story. So I’m going to go with that. And it was my Eureka moment.

FLORA LICHTMAN: That discovery was made by a student who had just finished her undergrad degree. The finding made a huge splash, and so did that student, who later became the first Sri Lankan to earn a PhD on marine mammal research, effectively charting a new path in science in her country. Dr. Asha de Vos is here to tell us about how she did it and what it takes to raise the next generation of ocean champions. Asha is the founder and executive director of the nonprofit Ocean Swell.

Asha, welcome to Science Friday.

ASHA DE VOS: Hi. I’m so pleased to be here.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Asha, I want to go back to this big moment in your scientific life. It’s 2003. You’re fresh out of undergrad. You’re working on a research vessel off the coast of Sri Lanka, and something catches your eye. Pick it up from here.

ASHA DE VOS: Oh, yeah. So whenever I get to tell the story, I get so excited because it takes me back to that moment. So we were tracking some sperm whales actually off the coast of Sri Lanka. I was out on deck looking for them, but actually in the distance, what I did see was a really tall, powerful blow or the exhalation of a whale. But it was so tall and powerful, I immediately knew that it was not a sperm whale. It was like a gigantic animal.

And so I got super excited, and I told my captain– I was like 11:00, 2 kilometers. Let’s go. I was telling him to change direction of our entire research expedition by the way.

And also you know what. On this boat– just to say on this boat, I was working as a deckhand, so I was only cleaning toilets and polishing brass. That was how my career started. So can you imagine the person who’s cleaning toilets and polishing brass is now asking this expedition to go completely off track because she may have seen what looks like a blue whale. I don’t know. I was clearly living on the edge at that point.

And then luckily for me, the captain was like sure after I said I think it might be a blue whale and we went in that direction. And so we were getting closer and closer to this animal. I’m panicking because I’m so afraid I’m going to lose sight of it because now everybody is looking for this so-called blue whale. And we’re getting closer and closer, and then I immediately start to think I’m losing my mind because it wasn’t one blue whale, but there were six blue whales. And it wasn’t just that there were six blue whales, but they were in an area the size of a soccer pitch.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Was it surprising to see blue whales? I know you were looking for sperm whales, but did you not expect to see blue whales in this area?

ASHA DE VOS: There were blue whales in our waters. They had been documented in 1983, but nobody had done any research on whales in Sri Lanka consistently since then because the country had gone through a war and access was limited and there was lots of things. And I think there’s two exciting and really surprising things.

One is that these are the largest animals that have ever roamed our planet. They can roam 70% of our planet because that’s how much ocean we have. But they were choosing to aggregate in this small patch of ocean.

And the second exciting thing is that they were aggregating in a small patch of ocean in warm tropical waters. And we normally expect to see aggregations like this where they’re feeding and large whales. What I’d been told by my textbooks and my professors was that large whales go to cold places to feed and come to warm places like Sri Lanka, which is in the tropics, just to breed and have babies.

And so I was excited because I thought I was going to see blue whales mating and having babies. I was at the edge of my seat. I was hanging off the front of the boat, and I was like, let’s go, let’s go. I’m like there’s six of them. There must be something happening.

And we get there. And it’s not at all what I expect to see. And that’s when I saw what you’re talking about, this magical, bright red patch of whale poop. It was– one, it’s still, to date one of the most incredible things you’ve ever seen. If your audience– anyone out there, if you’ve never seen blue whale poop, please Google it because it is bright brick red color and against the deep blue of the ocean, it is eye catching and it is amazing.

FLORA LICHTMAN: You’re going to have to translate for us about why this was magical.

ASHA DE VOS: Yes. So if an animal poops, that means it’s feeding somewhere close. And that was– for me, that was evidence. I was like wait a second. What’s happening because these whales are not supposed to be feeding in these waters. They’re supposed to do these giant journeys to go to places where there’s lots of food like cold Antarctic waters, for example. But they seem to be feeding here.

And to me at that moment, I was like, what is going on. This is just going against every rule in the textbook and everything that my professor said. And I was gobsmacked, gobsmacked.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Did it– did the– dis this launch your career? How did this change your trajectory?

ASHA DE VOS: So I always tell people not everyone has the privilege of saying that an aggregation of blue whales and a floating pile of whale poop was that– where their career kick started, but it’s pretty good story. So I’m going to go with that. And it was my eureka moment.

So, yeah, at that moment, I was like I want to understand what is going on. I want to understand how this is possible. What are they feeding on? Why are they here? Why are they not migrating?

So I actually that night I remember going into the bookcase and digging out any documents about blue whales and reading up and trying to see what was known about blue whales in this part of the world, which was basically nothing. And trying to understand a bit more of the biology of blue whales because I knew there was something exciting.

And then I actually reached out to scientists across the world who worked on these species because I was like I think I’ve got something exciting. I’d like to do some research and to build a project around it. But, of course, at this point, I’m 23 years old. So I don’t have any experience, I don’t– and in Sri Lanka, because nobody had done this kind of work, I had no one to turn to locally. So that’s why I had to write to people across the world, and as I would say the Global North.

And people were so excited, and I got like a flurry of emails. But their immediate response was this is so interesting, exciting, and we’d like to learn more and do more work. Can you get us a research permit so we can bring our teams and do research on the ground. And–

FLORA LICHTMAN: Wow. They wanted you to become essentially the fixer.

ASHA DE VOS: Exactly!

FLORA LICHTMAN: Not the scientist.

ASHA DE VOS: Exactly. And I remember thinking there’s something wrong with this. I am Sri Lankan. I was on an expedition in Sri Lankan waters, and I made a discovery about a potentially Sri Lankan group of whales.

If someone was trying to come and take over the research and I was like, no, thank you, and to date, I thank my 23-year-old self for having the courage to say that because it was the start of my career and I could have been in a position where I was like what if I can’t do this and maybe I can work on it for someone else. And instead I decided that I was going to be the person to do it.

So bold move. I’m glad it all worked out is what I should say.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Wow. So you bootstrapped this project yourself.

ASHA DE VOS: Yeah. Yeah.

FLORA LICHTMAN: By yourself in your 20s.

ASHA DE VOS: Yeah. Not bad. I still am–

FLORA LICHTMAN: Yeah, congrats.

ASHA DE VOS: Yeah. I say that often to myself. I think it’s important for us to look back and reflect and see these moments and really appreciate them. But, yeah.

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FLORA LICHTMAN: We have to take a quick break but don’t go away. More on this when we come back.

ASHA DE VOS: Parachute science is basically where people in this instance come from the Global North and do work and leave without any investment in people on the ground or local infrastructure.

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FLORA LICHTMAN: Why was it important to you that you as a Sri Lankan were leading this research. Explain for other people why that felt important.

ASHA DE VOS: The vessel I was working on was an American-owned vessel and there were no other locals, and they were all foreigners from the Global North. And sitting in that instance, I realized that how little opportunity people like myself had. The last time a research vessel had come to Sri Lanka was in 1983. This was 2003. So that’s– our opportunities are so rare, and I realized that even the previous vessel was all foreigners and working in my country.

And later down the line, I realized that was my first encounter with what I call parachute science. So parachute science is basically where people in this instance come from the Global North to countries like mine and the Global South, which are exotic in many ways with conservation challenges and do work and leave without any investment in people on the ground or local infrastructure.

And what happens in that situation is that the project is designed around the priorities and the interests of the outsider but not the priorities on the ground. And because the outsider is coming in with the resources like funding, there’s an unequal power imbalance between those from outside and then on the ground. And what happens is then the person who– researcher from outside, who comes in and does the work, their career tends to skyrocket because they’ve made these discoveries in these exotic places, but structurally it just doesn’t work. It’s unsustainable because people on the ground don’t have that expertise.

And I think there’s so much local talent if we create the opportunities because talent is equally distributed while opportunity is not. And I think there are a lot of capable people who can lead and do this research. And I guess that’s what I hope to be a lived example of exactly that being possible.

FLORA LICHTMAN: How do you start a research program in a place where no one’s doing what you’re doing?

ASHA DE VOS: The truth is that I said I made the discovery in 2003 and I started the project in 2008 and I’d been kind of spinning my legs on how to start and where to start and how to find money and whatever. I just decided I was going to barter my skills with the whale watch company that had literally just started in Sri Lanka that year. And I was like I’ll go on their boats, I’ll talk to tourists, and spend a bit more time observing these whales.

And so it was like little steps like that. Then I started writing a proposal. Then I started reading about work done in other places. So it was really chipping away at little baby little steps. But just always having that vision in the distance, I think that’s what it was just holding on to what I really wanted and just taking these little baby steps that slowly but surely were taking me closer to getting there.

FLORA LICHTMAN: You make it sound easy, but I’m sure there were challenges.

ASHA DE VOS: Of course, yeah. Oh, definitely. There’s always challenges. There’s challenges even today. You’re wrestling with all kinds of things. I talked about the parachute science and being at the receiving end of people constantly telling me that I wasn’t capable because of where I came from and things like that.

But on the flip side, I live in a country which is very male driven. And imagine a young female in a patriarchal society trying to establish a field that’s very outdoorsy and boats and things like that and people were just like it’s a man’s job. Why are you doing it? And I was like you don’t need to have a gender to care for something. I basically care for the ocean, and that’s what my job is.

Or people constantly telling me I’m not good enough because of what I’m wearing versus what I’m achieving or not being good enough.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Wow.

ASHA DE VOS: Yeah.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Give me an example of that because I think the details are important.

ASHA DE VOS: I’ll give you this example because it’s something that it sticks with me. When I work on the boats, I work– wear skinnies and shorts and no shoes. That’s how I work. And someone had taken one of the pictures of me, someone local, and put it on local Facebook, local language Facebook and basically been like what kind of a woman dresses like this.

And I didn’t see it. I’ve also grown very thick skin because I have dealt with enough of people trying to tear me down, and I’m not really interested in expending energy in that direction. But the reason they saw this is because a young female, a young girl, a scientist who is– for want of a better word a fan of mine I would say or who’s been inspired by my work, she sent it to me and she said, Dr. Asha, I need you to see this but don’t be upset. Just read the comments. And I was like strange comment but OK. And I opened it.

FLORA LICHTMAN: No, because you never read the comments, especially these days.

ASHA DE VOS: No, never. I learned that very early in my career.

But then I read the comments. And you know what. All these young Sri Lankan girls who had been inspired by my journey basically were standing up for me and being like do you know what she’s done for this country. Do you what she’s done for the field? Do you what–

And I just laying it thick. And I felt so proud. I felt so proud that there were people who were inspired enough to stand up and to learn to stand up for another woman. And I thought that was a really quite– it was a really powerful moment for me.

But these are not uncommon things in– I have dealt with a lot of similar things unfortunately in Sri Lanka. And I think we need to and also the fact that I’m not married has been– I’ll have people being like, oh my gosh, congratulations on that big award but when are you getting married. Oh my gosh, there is not even a full stop in between those two sentences.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Not even a comma.

ASHA DE VOS: Not even a comma, not even a breath let’s say. But I think– someone told me long ago, hate and jealousy means you’re doing something right. So I hold that close. I also decided very early on that I’m going to let my work speak for me, and I’m not going to speak for itself. I’m not going to ever try to fight the critics because it’s a waste of energy.

And I’ve dealt with so many challenges along the way. It’s been a roller coaster ride in its own way, but I also often tell people that if it wasn’t, then I wouldn’t have an interesting story to tell. And people like yourself right now wouldn’t be interviewing me because it would be a boring story. So I’m grateful for the challenges.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Your story about those girls really– it gives me goosebumps. I can’t even imagine what it’s like for you. It must be so moving.

You became a marine biologist in Sri Lanka when the field did not exist. What is it like now?

ASHA DE VOS: Oh, it’s so exciting because today there are lots of local universities that have marine related degrees. There are so many young people who want to go into the field, who want to work with us or work on our projects or there are other organizations that have also been established addressing marine issues. So it’s a completely different environment, and it’s nuts because it’s only been, what, 20 years. And just see that trajectory and that interest and suddenly Sri Lankans are looking beyond the shoreline and starting to recognize the importance of protecting this ocean space.

One thing I should point out is that traditionally countries like ours even though they’re islands, most people don’t swim, and that’s because the ocean was traditionally not a place of recreation. It is where fishermen went to work. And the stories that were told were of people drowning or there was loss. And so it was a place of fear.

And being– using this ocean as a recreational space is a really quite a new concept, and people thought choosing to work as a marine biologist was frivolous. And that was one of the reasons why they were just like, oh, that’s so cute. Oh, it’s such a cute little hobby you have because they pictured it being just a frivolous plaything.

And I think the fact that today it’s such a recognized field, Sri Lanka is really looking beyond that shoreline into what we can do next and signing global treaties and whatever, it is amazing to see that change. And I feel very proud because I know that in part my own journey has inspired this shift as well. And so, yeah, it’s amazing.

FLORA LICHTMAN: It’s amazing. You get to live through these students, as you say but because you pioneered this path. It’s beautiful. Congratulations.

ASHA DE VOS: Thank you. Thank you.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Dr. Asha de Vos is a marine biologist and the founder and executive director of the nonprofit Ocean Swell. Thanks for joining us today.

ASHA DE VOS: Thank you so much for having me. It’s been wonderful, and I really, really enjoyed myself.

FLORA LICHTMAN: If you liked the show, rate and review us wherever you listen or just go straight to guerilla marketing. Take a friend’s phone and subscribe them to this podcast. Please help us get the word out about Science Friday. Today’s episode was produced by Rasha Aridi. I’m Flora Lichtman. Thanks for listening.