World Space Week And Promising Climate Tech Companies

FLORA LICHTMAN: Hey, I’m Flora Lichtman, and you’re listening to Science Friday. Today on the podcast, we are leaving planet Earth to wrestle with some of the big mysteries of space.

HAKEEM OLUSEYI: You got to get deep into these things, and you have to contemplate them. And as I’m sitting here living in the cosmological realm for weeks– my mind is in that space– I understand how people go mad.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Strap in. Happy World Space Week to those who celebrate. We have been going hard, obviously. And to cap off the week, we are leaving the planet behind for a moment. Why not? Here to space out with us is astrophysicist Hakeem Oluseyi. He’s the author of the upcoming book Why Do We Exist? The Nine Realms of the Universe That Make You Possible and the host of the video podcast, Particles of Thought. Hakeem, welcome to Science Friday.

HAKEEM OLUSEYI: Thank you for having me. I am a huge fan.

FLORA LICHTMAN: We are honored. OK, so as we know, space is big. There is no shortage of news. But you flagged a couple new missions that you think should be on our radar, including IMAP. What is that?

HAKEEM OLUSEYI: Yeah, so IMAP is a mission that is going to study how our sun protects us from the dangerous radiation of intergalactic space. So our sun has this phenomenon known as the solar wind. It’s blowing all the time at 1 million miles per hour. And it creates this bubble of magnetic field that acts like a cosmic shield for us. So IMAP is going to study both how the sun accelerates those particles to form the wind, but also the stuff that is entering our magnetic bubble, our shield, and coming into the inner solar system. So it’s going to actually sample the local interstellar medium.

FLORA LICHTMAN: I didn’t realize that the sun was actually protecting us, because I feel like when I hear about the sun and solar wind and space weather, it’s like it’s all coming at us from the sun. But you’re saying it protects us, too?

HAKEEM OLUSEYI: Yeah, absolutely. So both are occurring. We live inside the Earth’s magnetic bubble that we call our magnetosphere. And the sun has a bigger magnetic bubble that encloses the entire solar system called the heliosphere. And the radiation that’s coming from the sun is primarily just hydrogen nuclei– protons, right? They’re dangerous. But what’s coming from the galaxy is the stuff that’s spewing out of black holes, coming from exploding stars, so it’s way more dangerous. And the sun is our protector, so we need a protector from our protector.

FLORA LICHTMAN: OK. That’s interesting. So how does this mission work with the Parker Solar Probe, which we’ve covered on the show and we know made history recently with the closest flyby? Is it going to upstage the Parker Solar Probe?

HAKEEM OLUSEYI: They’re going to work in sync. So NASA has a fleet of heliophysics satellites that monitor the sun from various locations in the solar system. There are the Solar Dynamics Observatory, the Stereo mission, Parker, IMAP, and so together they can sample what’s happening where they are located– the actual solar wind itself, the magnetic fields that are in it, the particles that are in it. They can look back at Earth if need be, and they can measure the stuff coming into our solar system from elsewhere. So it’s almost like having several eyes looking in multiple different directions and protecting the Earth all together. Space weather is a thing as much as Earth’s surface weather.

FLORA LICHTMAN: One of the big mysteries we’ve talked about on Science Friday for many years is this niggling little question of what 95% of the universe is made of– this mystery of dark matter and dark energy.

HAKEEM OLUSEYI: Yes.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Have we made any progress there?

HAKEEM OLUSEYI: Oh, man. There’s progress and there’s progress. So the progress is that we’ve eliminated everything we thought we knew. We think it’s this, and then you do studies or you look for it, and you find out, well, it looks like it’s not that after all. So dark matter and dark energy remain huge problems. But we have these new missions that are going to give us more information, more data.

One is the Vera Rubin telescope. I was a member of the early development team for it. It just got first light this summer. There’s the Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope that’s coming up. So what they’re going to do is they’re going to map out dark matter, which you can see through its gravitational effects, and it’s going to look at the expansion rate of the universe over time to an incredibly high precision. Again, maybe not exactly know what dark energy is, but what dark energy is not.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Are we getting into the Hubble crisis here?

HAKEEM OLUSEYI: Oh, yeah. So currently, we can measure the expansion rate of the universe nearby, both in space and time, and we can measure the expansion rate of the universe at a time 13.5 billion years ago. And the problem is they don’t agree. And the more precisely we make the measurements, the disagreement only grows. So this is a real crisis. And so with Rubin and with Nancy Grace Roman, hopefully we can go into that region where we currently don’t have a lot of good data.

We don’t know what the universe was doing in that period. And there’s recent evidence from an experiment called DESI that dark energy is getting weaker. It was thought to be a constant force in the universe. Now we’re finding it may vary with time. So scientists get excited when there’s something that we don’t. And this is squarely in that category.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Yes. We have talked to many astrophysicists on the show that are like, it’s an amazing time to be alive.

HAKEEM OLUSEYI: It is. It is, because you can ask these questions. But at the same time, you’re like, man, I wish I was alive 100 years from now.

FLORA LICHTMAN: So you could have some answers, you mean?

HAKEEM OLUSEYI: Exactly. I was talking to one of the discoverers of dark energy on the podcast last week, Adam Riess, who won the Nobel Prize for it. And I asked him– I said, hey, man, I worked in this area myself at the turn of the century. And I was like, did you think it would take us this long to figure this out? We thought that we would know by this time.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Yeah. What did he say?

HAKEEM OLUSEYI: What he said was, man, I didn’t even believe it when I discovered it, let alone getting to the point of thinking we’re going to discover what it is. I wasn’t even sure it was real. And he went on to say that it wasn’t until I was actually at the Nobel Prize ceremony that I thought to myself, OK, maybe this is real.

FLORA LICHTMAN: That’s amazing. OK, more small questions for you. The name of your book is Why Do We Exist?

HAKEEM OLUSEYI: Yes.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Why do we exist?

HAKEEM OLUSEYI: Oh, because we are incredibly lucky. I talk about the nine realms of the universe that make us possible. And if you take away any of those nine realms– one of the realms is the dark realm, dark matter and dark energy. Without dark matter, we don’t have galaxies forming. Without galaxies, we don’t have star systems. And without star systems, we don’t have planets.

So there are so many layered elements to our existence, from the cosmological realm of the very large to the quantum realm of the very small, to the realm of life that really does this thing with energy that seems to violate the second law of thermodynamics. It creates order. Life creates order, creates higher complexity and takes advantage of these energy gradients to sustain itself.

When you really get an understanding of how unlikely our existence is– and I don’t mean the existence of life itself. I do a calculation in my book of how many worlds should exist in our galaxy with large life forms like ourselves. And it’s like one out of a million star systems. But when you look at how many bodies should have life like we perhaps just discovered on Mars with this new data– small bacteria, archaea, viruses, things like that– it could be in the billions, if not hundreds of billions. So this universe is hostile to life throughout the majority of its volume, yet here we are.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Here we are.

HAKEEM OLUSEYI: It seems like an impossible inevitability. It’s both impossible and inevitable, and here we are.

FLORA LICHTMAN: I have goosebumps. These are deep thoughts. How do they– do they creep into your daily life?

HAKEEM OLUSEYI: Oh my goodness. When you get trained in physics, you just don’t see the world in the same way anymore. And I’m telling you, when I was writing this book, you got to get deep into these things, and you have to contemplate them. And as I’m sitting here living in the cosmological realm for weeks, my mind is in that space. I understand how people go mad.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Yes, totally. How did you get into this field, Hakeem?

HAKEEM OLUSEYI: Oh, it started when I was 10 years old. I was always interested in nature. And when I was a 10-year-old-, I was an avid reader as a child, back when books were a thing. And I decided I was going to read my family’s set of encyclopedias from A to Z.

And I got to E, and I encountered Albert Einstein. And I encountered relativity. And I always loved things that were weird and magical, and that’s exactly what Einstein and relativity are, so I became instantly obsessed. So fast forward to 17. I’m winning first place in the state science fair in Mississippi for writing a program that calculated all the effects of relativity.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Wow, OK. You were committed.

HAKEEM OLUSEYI: I was committed. I was obsessed. That’s the thing– obsession can look like discipline or commitment, but it’s really just I can’t take my mind off of this. I just want to understand the nature of reality as it exists. And because it’s so non-intuitive, you can’t be an armchair quarterback and figure out how the universe works. It requires rigorous math, rigorous observations, rigorous experiments.

And I realized that the way to get to deeper truth was to learn that scientific rigor. And then what I discovered was we’ve learned so much to this point, maybe we can ask crazy questions like, why do we exist that sound non-scientific. But our data has taken us so far that we’re starting to get an inkling to the answers to some of these questions.

FLORA LICHTMAN: I love that, OK, looking ahead, is there one of these missions or projects that you are looking forward to that really keeps you on the edge of your seat?

HAKEEM OLUSEYI: Well, I love the study of space time itself. And there’s these two sets of experiments that will give us some deeper insights. One already has, and these gravitational wave observatories, like LIGO and Virgo. But another, which is also equally spectacular, is the Event Horizon Telescope that’s imaging black holes at the cores of galaxies– our own and nearby ones, like M87. This is where space time takes on its most extreme behaviors. And so by studying nature at the extremes, we can learn more about the general, the mundane, and what’s global.

Space time eludes us. That’s why we’re weirded out by dark matter and dark energy, because essentially it’s a space time effect. That’s the stuff I’m looking forward to. What new insights are they going to give us about the nature of reality? And then how do we take advantage of it with the technologies we’re going to develop in the future?

FLORA LICHTMAN: I can’t wait. Astrophysicist Hakeem Oluseyi– his upcoming book, Why Do We Exist– The Nine Realms of the Universe That Make You Possible, comes to shelves this spring. Hakeem also hosts the video podcast Particles of Thought, and you can find it on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks, Hakeem.

HAKEEM OLUSEYI: Thank you so much.

FLORA LICHTMAN: And if you’re looking for more space travel, Science Friday’s Down to Earth has you covered. Join in on a cosmic mission to tackle climate change in your own backyard, no spacesuit required. Check out all the activities at sciencefriday.com/downtoearth. Coming up after the break, Ira takes a look at some of the trends and innovations happening in climate tech. Stick around.

IRA FLATOW: For better or worse, it’s been a big year for climate tech. The Trump administration has slashed billions of dollars in funding for clean energy projects. On the other hand, other countries are ramping up their climate initiatives.

The magazine MIT Technology Review recently published a list of climate tech companies to watch. They’re ones that aren’t just doing something innovative but show real promise in driving down greenhouse gas emissions. Here to discuss the trends and inventions happening in climate tech is MIT Technology Review senior climate reporter Casey Crownhart. Casey, welcome back.

CASEY CROWNHEART: Thanks so much for having me.

IRA FLATOW: OK, you’ve worked on this list of climate companies to watch for what? Three years now? How did you decide? How did you decide what companies made it into the list?

CASEY CROWNHEART: Yeah, this is our third year putting this list together, and it’s always a really interesting exercise. We try to zoom out a little bit, think about what industries show promise, what countries, what geographies are going to be important in the coming year and years to come. Within that, what businesses are showing progress, building pilot plants or raising a lot of money or showing new results that indicate that they could really help reduce greenhouse gas emissions or help us deal with climate change in the future?

IRA FLATOW: Did the cuts to climate funding here in the US affect your choices?

CASEY CROWNHEART: Absolutely. This year, we actually reduced the number of companies on our list. So in past years, we’ve recognized 15. And just in observance of what’s going on in climate tech, we decided to scale it back a little bit this year.

So we have 10 companies on our list. We also have an even more international list this year. In the past, it’s been a worldwide range of companies. But this year, we really focused on looking to Europe, looking to China, these other markets while the US is seeing maybe a little bit of a slowdown.

IRA FLATOW: Well, it’s a little bit more than a little slowdown, is it not? There are all kinds of things going on, all kinds of cuts.

CASEY CROWNHEART: Yeah, I’m trying to be a little bit positive. But no, absolutely. Like you mentioned at the top last week, there were announcements that the Department of Energy is terminating hundreds of grants worth over $7 billion for clean energy. And that’s just a continuation of a trend in the US.

We’re still seeing private investment isn’t as dramatic of a story. The first half of this year, climate tech private investment is holding steady. So globally, it’s not too terrible of a story. But yeah, definitely public funding in the US is a huge turnaround from this time last year.

IRA FLATOW: And I think the one country we’re seeing a huge turnaround in is China.

CASEY CROWNHEART: China is absolutely the global leader in clean energy tech. And we definitely recognized that as we were putting the list together, whether it’s batteries, solar and wind, everything. But it’s really not a turnaround, I would say. This country has, for nearly two decades, been slowly and surely building these industries up through really longstanding public support.

IRA FLATOW: Yeah, I guess what I meant by turnaround is they’re the world’s biggest fossil fuel emitters.

CASEY CROWNHEART: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that’s true. And to be fair, China does still get a really big portion of its electricity from coal. But you’re seeing that a lot of the growth is absolutely coming from renewables. So yeah, that’s really fair to say.

IRA FLATOW: And why is that so successful? What makes their clean energy projects stand out?

CASEY CROWNHEART:

IRA FLATOW: I think that a lot of it comes from that foundation of just China in the 2000s saw that, OK, everybody else has an auto industry. And as we build ours up, we’re going to try to focus on something different. And so I think by giving a lot of subsidies, really focusing policy support for all of these technologies, China has been able to scale these industries. And so it’s easier to build solar panels if you’ve built millions and millions of them before. So I think that it just comes down, to some extent, to an extended, deliberate effort to scale up these industries. And now they can make very, very cheap products.

IRA FLATOW: Yeah, let’s talk about some of these companies on your list, specifically in China. A company in Beijing is scaling up sodium ion batteries. Is sodium ion a game changer?

CASEY CROWNHEART: I’m really interested in sodium ion batteries, and I’ve been following them for a while. So yeah, this company that we highlighted, Hina Battery Technology, they’re a startup company making sodium ion cells. This tech could be less expensive than lithium ion batteries, just based on the materials. Sodium is much more abundant. And so we’re really interested to see what this company can do.

They already have batteries in stationary storage plants on the grid to help store renewable power. And they also have their batteries in electric scooters already. So we’re really interested to see what happens with them. But they’re also not the only one doing sodium ion batteries. The big companies in China– CATL, BYD– also have really significant support behind this technology, too.

IRA FLATOW: And the competitive advantage they have, sodium ion, over lithium?

CASEY CROWNHEART: It’s interesting, because this is another example of battery technology where a lot of the tech, a lot of the ideas were invented in the US. And there are some US companies building sodium ion batteries as well. But there was actually one big high profile one that shut down just recently. So again, I think that some people thought that sodium ion could be a way that the US snuck in and was more competitive with China on batteries. But we’re really seeing so far, no indications that China is slowing down.

IRA FLATOW: Yeah, and they could actually make an impact on the climate.

CASEY CROWNHEART: Absolutely. I think transportation is one of the biggest sectors, in terms of greenhouse gas emissions– and the grid. So if you’re able to– I think that batteries are basically a master key for the energy transition, so I’m always yapping about them. But yeah, if you can make a dent on transportation and on the energy sector, that’s two really big ones right there.

IRA FLATOW: You know what we also notice is that the AI data centers are taking up a huge amount of energy. And even the data center builders are trying to think of new ways to come up with how they might get that energy. What’s going on here?

CASEY CROWNHEART: Yeah, you’re super on it on that. That trend is one we noticed as well. And so there’s a ton of talk around how much energy we’re going to need to power these massive data centers. And so we noticed that in the US, some of these companies are maybe going to be able to help with that in the future.

So nuclear, we noticed Kairos Power building these alternative, next generation nuclear plants. Fervo Energy is a geothermal company that is trying to do the same thing. If companies are able to take advantage of all of this money and interest and excitement, that could be one way that people can win in this really tough climate tech environment in the US.

IRA FLATOW: Are there actually new nuclear power designs and companies that are taking advantage of them?

CASEY CROWNHEART: Yeah, so Kairos, one of the companies on our list, they recently signed a deal to basically supply energy to Google for their data centers. And so there are designs. I think one of the biggest questions when you hear about nuclear and data centers is the timeline, because you can build a data center fairly quickly. New nuclear power takes a very long time to permit and to build and to start up, so that’s one caveat that I’ll say is that it’s exciting to see some of this money and interest go towards these companies, but it’s going to take a long time for that to actually execute and make a dent in this energy demand.

IRA FLATOW: Did you notice any other themes as you put together this list?

CASEY CROWNHEART: Absolutely. I think another one that we really noticed is critical minerals and materials is really an interesting area and one that I think you could see some positive moves in the US. So we highlighted one company called Cyclic Materials. They are trying to recycle rare Earth magnets– so these are magnets that are in everything from speakers to EV motors and wind turbines and smartphones. And there’s this concern that all of those materials are today processed in China, basically. And so this company is one of a growing industry that’s trying to reclaim those rare Earth magnets, recycle them, and be able to use that material again.

IRA FLATOW: Give me a quick 101 about what are these materials? And why are they so important to recycle?

CASEY CROWNHEART: Rare Earth magnets are powerful magnets, so they’re much more powerful than the iron-based magnets you might find on your fridge. And they’re really the basis for a lot of electronics today, and they require some materials, like neodymium, that can be concentrated on the planet. You don’t just find them everywhere. They’re not really all that rare, but they can be a little bit tough to refine.

And so it’s become this really interesting field where people are saying, we have all of these magnets in your old iPhone that is sitting in a drawer somewhere or these EVs that are starting to come off the road. And so it would use a lot less water. It would produce a lot less greenhouse gas emissions to reclaim those. You basically grind them up, put them through this chemical process, and you can reclaim those materials rather than having to go mine them again, refine them again, and so on.

IRA FLATOW: Yeah, because so little of it gets recycled now.

CASEY CROWNHEART: Very, very little. Globally, only about 0.2% of rare earths are recycled from used devices.

IRA FLATOW: All right. Last question for you, Casey. Let’s look ahead. Even amidst all these cuts to climate funding here in the US, is there a technology that you’re hoping has, for lack of a better word, a breakthrough in the coming year?

CASEY CROWNHEART: Oh, that’s a really tough one. I’m really excited about the electric vehicle companies that we included on this list. So Traton in Europe is really working on getting electric trucks on the road, and I think that could be a real breakthrough if we can continue to get more of our road transport electrified, keep building out the charging infrastructure to be able to charge these vehicles quickly. That’s another one that I’m really excited to see if they can have this commercial or uptake breakthrough.

IRA FLATOW: And the Chinese, other companies are making some incredible electric vehicles. But I don’t see the Trump administration allowing any of them to get here.

CASEY CROWNHEART: Yeah, it’s really interesting. And everybody who goes to China or gets to see these vehicles says it’s night and day, that the technology that’s in those cars– how cheap they’re starting to become. Absolutely. I don’t see anybody catching up to China’s lead anytime soon.

IRA FLATOW: Well, I want to thank you for taking time to be with us today.

CASEY CROWNHEART: Thank you so much for having me– always so much fun.

IRA FLATOW: It’s always good to have you, Casey. Casey Crownhart, senior climate reporter for MIT Technology Review.

FLORA LICHTMAN: If you liked the show, rate and review us wherever you listen or just go straight to guerilla marketing. Take a friend’s phone and subscribe them to this podcast. Please help us get the word out about Science Friday. Today’s episode was produced by Charles Bergquist and Rasha Aridi. But a lot of folks help make this show happen every single week, including–

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FLORA LICHTMAN: I’m Flora Lichtman. Thanks for listening.

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