The Science Of That Big Stunt From The New ‘Mission: Impossible’

FLORA LICHTMAN: Hi, I’m Flora Lichtman, and you are listening to Science Friday.

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Today on the show, what is going on in the minds and bodies of thrill seekers?

KENNETH CARTER: A lot of the high sensation seekers I’ve talked to actually tell me that adrenaline gets in the way of what they want to do.

FLORA LICHTMAN: But first–

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–the latest installment in the Mission Impossible franchise, The Final Reckoning, is out today. And if you’ve seen any Mission Impossible movies, you know that they go big on the stunts. Tom Cruise is famous for doing his own stunts. We’ve seen him climb the Burj Khalifa, do a high-altitude skydive from a plane, jump off a cliff on a motorcycle, which got us thinking, is there a science to stunts? And how has stunt technology changed over the years? Here to tell us more is sci-fi producer Kathleen Davis, who saw the new Mission Impossible movie early. Hello, Kathleen.

KATHLEEN DAVIS: Hi, Flora. And yes, I can tell you that this new movie has one particular extended stunt that genuinely had me holding my breath. We will have some small spoilers for the movie, but we’re not going to spoil the plot for you.

About halfway through the movie, our main character, Ethan Hunt, who is, of course, played by Tom Cruise, dives to a submarine at the bottom of the Bering Sea to retrieve an item that’s important to the plot. So Ethan Hunt breaks into the submarine. He’s in a wetsuit with an oxygen tank.

He’s running around the sub when it starts rolling. Picture a submarine rolling down an underwater hill. It starts filling with water. He’s trying to find the escape door. It’s a very dramatic scene. And there’s a lot of sloshing, a lot of upside-down Tom Cruise.

So I wanted to find out what kind of science it takes to pull off a stunt like this. And I called up the movie’s stunt coordinator and second unit director, Wade Eastwood, to talk about it.

WADE EASTWOOD: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

KATHLEEN DAVIS: Wade, what is it like to have the coolest job in Hollywood?

WADE EASTWOOD: Well, it’s stressful, and it’s fun. Yeah, no, it’s great. It’s a great job.

KATHLEEN DAVIS: Can somebody actually get hurt if you don’t do your job right? Is that part of the stress?

WADE EASTWOOD: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. God, yeah. Yeah, if I don’t do my job right, someone’s definitely going to get hurt. So it’s not just on the actual stunt. It’s the whole buildup to the stunt. So it’s all the training that the actors or the stunt performers will go through. In Mission cases, the actors– because, obviously, Tom does all his own stunts.

But it’s the training, putting the right training plan together, making sure that the training plan is adhered to and that we don’t shortcut anything and that by the time the training plan is finished, the competency level is so accurately there because, don’t forget, these actors, they’re acting. They’re not playing themselves.

So I have to get them so comfortable within the specific stunt that they can then start acting as the character doing the stunt, whereas it’s hard enough just doing the stunt sometimes. So that’s the hardest part.

KATHLEEN DAVIS: So I want to talk about this underwater stunt that comes about halfway through the film. Where did the idea for this stunt come from?

WADE EASTWOOD: Tom’s very passionate about certain stunts. He’s always wanted to do certain things. And him and McQ hashed out this amazing underwater sequence they wanted to do.

KATHLEEN DAVIS: And McQ is the director, correct?

WADE EASTWOOD: Chris McQuarrie, yes. So between the two of them, they sort of came up with these crazy ideas. And then they approached me, and we would sit down together, and how can we execute these crazy ideas? And then I’ll come up with a bunch of crazy ideas, and as long as it stays true to the story and the character again– so we’d start going off on tangents of like, yes, that would be mad, that’d be crazy, and then it’s not true enough. So we have to rein that back in, and we go off on another tangent.

And we just keep exploding off in these different creative tangents of action and then, eventually, hybrid it down to, OK, this is what works for the story, and this is suspense and drama and action. And we come up with a compromise.

KATHLEEN DAVIS: Because there are a lot of different components to this sequence in the film. You’ve got Tom Cruise doing a big dive. He’s getting inside of a submarine. He’s swimming and running around and swimming around this submarine.

On screen it takes, I would say, about 20 minutes or so. How long did it actually take to film that whole sequence?

WADE EASTWOOD: Oh, months. I mean, we’ve had all sorts of things with strikes, COVID, and all sorts of things have affected the making of the film and the training and then weather with the outdoor sequences that we’re filming as well and those being affected.

So all that working with our cinematographers and our lighting departments and our props teams and the stunts and special effects, and then working out the sequence, walking through the sets, and can we really do that for real with real sets and real torpedoes and real metal and real this? And when we do the fake ones, it just looks fake.

I mean, everything’s real with Mission. That’s the hardest part is it’d be very easy to fake it, to go into a green screen environment, even if the environment was moving, even if the environment had water, and fake it. But we don’t. Everything you see is in camera. That’s what makes it very challenging.

KATHLEEN DAVIS: Mm-hmm. So how much are you thinking about science when you’re putting a stunt together?

WADE EASTWOOD: Well, science plays a huge factor. I mean, everything we do is– I mean, the building of these rigs, these rigs were incredible, I mean, incredible scientific and mathematical. How can we mix gases to have more time at depth and more time here?

And when Tom’s breathing out in this mask, all this dirty air, if you like, is not escaping as it should do, because this is a prototype mask. So he’s rebreathing, and he’s getting drowsy and sickness from it. And why is he so tired after so many minutes when we know he can sustain, because he’s so fit, hours underwater normally?

And then we have to work that out with the escape of the valves. Because it’s a prototype, it’s actually keeping his dirty air, if you like, recycled air is back in. And he was getting tired from that or it starts cramping the body.

And so there’s a lot of science behind everything we do, as it’s all prototype stuff, if you like, and test phase stuff, we work it out in safe environments before we go into the dangerous environment. And then we know our limits.

All right, we have two minutes in this environment. We have one minute in that environment, three minutes in that environment. And we’ve got stopwatches going, we’ve got safety divers, and this is how we have to approach it.

KATHLEEN DAVIS: Do you work with scientists when you’re thinking about who can answer maybe those more mathematical questions?

WADE EASTWOOD: For sure. I mean, we bring doctors in and underwater specialists for that sequence and scientists if we have to, absolutely. And we ask them, what are the effects on the body, why are we feeling this, and what’s going on?

And we always want to know– knowledge is power. So we always want as much knowledge as possible. So we understand rather than just keep enduring it. There’s no stone left unturned. We want as much information as possible about everything.

KATHLEEN DAVIS: What was the submarine set like? Were you actually working in water?

WADE EASTWOOD: Oh, God, yeah. Yeah, we were working in water in the submarine set every day, not only raised and lowered into water, completely submerged, deep underwater, and then could elevate, but also could rotate 360 degrees, could tilt. So we had roll, tilt– roll and pitch if you like.

KATHLEEN DAVIS: Is this just a giant pool in a Hollywood lot?

WADE EASTWOOD: No, there was no pool big enough. So we had to build the biggest underwater tank to shoot the sequence in. We had to build the two tanks, and then we had to build the sets to fit the tanks.

KATHLEEN DAVIS: How big are we talking about?

WADE EASTWOOD: Big. Very big, Bigger than any tank. One of the smaller tanks was 40 feet deep, 150, 160 foot in diameter. And it was one of the small tanks. It was a hell of a feat by production designer, by our special effects department, by Tom for designing every part of it and coming up with– being there every step of the way because he knew what we wanted. Yeah, it was a hell of a feat from all those involved.

KATHLEEN DAVIS: Are there additional challenges to working in water as a stunt coordinator?

WADE EASTWOOD: Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, there’s a lot of safety. We’ve got a great dive team that we use. And I’ve used them for years and years. And that’s just on dive times, time at depth, who’s in the water, who’s watching who, because it’s such a busy set that people can disappear, and it’s a big set. And it’s lit dimly and flashing lights, and people can disappear very quickly underwater.

And then we’ve got all the entrapment hazards as well. We’ve got this massive mechanical set on this gimbal that’s moving and rolling and pitching and grinding all these gears and chain motors.

And you get trapped or caught or pulled in by current into one of these, and you’re crushed. It’s not going to jam up and stop. You’re going to get sliced in half– so a lot of safety protocol just for entering the water or being around the water before you even go into the set. And only very few people are allowed in the set.

Being in the set with Tom when he was doing the action, and we had hand signals along the way that if we lost vision through bubbles and light, there was lighting signals and hand signals. I had backups for my signals and backups for those. If I lose track of him for too long or I’m unsure at any stage, I would stop the rig.

But then still everything else is moving with momentum and the motion, the sound of metal fatigue and crunching as things still fall into place and gravity rules. It was a very, very eerie, extremely dangerous and eerie environment. But we planned it, we rehearsed it, and we executed it.

KATHLEEN DAVIS: What you do is very practical and it’s very practically based. I mean, is there a push and pull to how much you’re able to get done practically versus how much you do have to eventually use some CGI?

WADE EASTWOOD: With some films, obviously, like the Marvel world, they would need CG because it’s a world that doesn’t exist. But we shoot in worlds that exist. So we don’t use CG in our Mission films. I mean, we might use a bit of computer generated for coloring a sky or a tree or do something to enhance a picture or color-correct or paint out a cable that might be there for safety, you know what I mean? A small thing like that.

But everything is in camera. Everything is real. And that’s what makes it complicated is we’re not cheating the audiences. You’re seeing what you’re seeing, and it’s real.

And it is novel. And unfortunately, I feel it’s slightly dying because so much can be cheated with computers. It’s very difficult. You’re sitting on a set on a gimbal rig that’s moving, and you’re shouting at the actor, it’s coming up behind you on your right, and there it is on the left, and feel the heat from that.

And now you’re cold, and now you’re hot. And yeah, there are actors that can do it, and the film will come out, and it’ll be content. But it won’t be a film.

It won’t be necessarily something, unless you mix it and you have more practical with a little bit of that where you can’t get away with it. That’s fine. But when you go too far on the CG side, then I think you just lose touch. And I think the audiences disconnect.

KATHLEEN DAVIS: Mm-hmm. Do you find it takes a special type of person to do stunts, or requires certain traits that you see across these films that you’ve done?

WADE EASTWOOD: Yeah, for sure. I think stunt performers around the world are a unique breed of character. And the ones that are at the top of their game, they all have the same sort of level of commitment. They can’t sit still. They’re always training, always trying to learn new skills. They’re always trying to create something.

They’re all over the place with their energy. We’re always pushing the envelope of our bodies as well. What can our body endure? How long can we hold our breath? Well, how long can we do this or that? And I think that’s what makes a stunt performer slightly unique.

KATHLEEN DAVIS: Is the adrenaline rush part of your enjoyment?

WADE EASTWOOD: I think for sure. I think anyone that does extreme sports or– like in my personal life, I do a lot of extreme sports, and I’m doing them every day pretty much if I can. And if I can’t do them because the weather’s bad or something, I’m pretty grumpy to be around sometimes because I’m not getting my adrenaline fulfillment.

We just require that. We need that, thrive on that.

KATHLEEN DAVIS: Wade Eastwood, second unit director and stunt coordinator for Mission Impossible, The Final Reckoning. Thanks so much for joining us.

WADE EASTWOOD: My pleasure. Thank you.

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FLORA LICHTMAN: To stay up to date on the hidden science in the latest movies, subscribe to our fantastic newsletter, “Science Goes to the Movies,” at sciencefriday.com/movies.

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After the break, what makes some people thrill seekers? We’ll talk to a scientist who studies people who love to live on the edge.

KENNETH CARTER: So when they’re in these highly chaotic experiences, they feel lots of pleasure, but not much stress.

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FLORA LICHTMAN: Up next, from stunt technology to stunt psychology, what is actually happening in Tom Cruise’s brain when he rolls around in a spinning submarine What makes some people better suited to this kind of work? And what can they teach us about thrill-seeking behavior?

Here to answer those questions and more is psychologist Dr. Kenneth Carter from Oxford College at Emory University and author of Buzz, Inside the Minds of Thrill Seekers, Daredevils, and Adrenaline Junkies. Ken, welcome to Science Friday.

KENNETH CARTER: Glad to be here.

FLORA LICHTMAN: OK, Ken, you research, I think, people like Wade, our stunt coordinator. What makes them special? Do you see differences in their brain or their hormone levels? Is there a physiological or anatomical difference to them?

KENNETH CARTER: Yeah, there is. When most people– when all of us are around something that’s really chaotic or frightening, we set off something called cortisol. It’s sort of a stress hormone that organizes our body systems for that fight, flee, or freeze response.

And so these high sensation seekers actually don’t actually give out a lot of cortisol– less cortisol than you’d expect from an average or low-sensation-seeking person. On the other hand, they tend to exhibit a lot of a neurotransmitter called dopamine, which is associated with pleasure. So when they’re in these highly chaotic experiences, they feel lots of pleasure, but not much stress.

So it’s a really, really neat combination that’s coming from their brain.

FLORA LICHTMAN: That sounds like a dream come true to me.

KENNETH CARTER: [LAUGHS] It would be if you are a high sensation seeker. If you’re a low sensation seeker, it’s the opposite, where you’re really, really stressed out, and you’re actually not feeling that much pleasure.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Where do you fall in the thrill-seeking scale?

KENNETH CARTER: I’m pretty low. So out of a scale of about 40 points, I score about an 8 out of 40. A lot of the high sensation seekers I’ve interviewed are 38 or 39’s. I’ve even interviewed some people who are 40 out of 40.

FLORA LICHTMAN: OK, you can take this questionnaire, listeners, on our website at sciencefriday.com/stunts and find out where you fall on the scale. Ken, I took it, and I was a 31–

KENNETH CARTER: Oh my gosh.

FLORA LICHTMAN: –which was in the– yeah, oh gosh. I was in the very high range.

KENNETH CARTER: So I can guess that if you’re going on vacation, you’re not going to love those hop-on, hop-off buses. You’re going to want to get in the fray, eat unusual things, go on roller coasters. I’m just guessing.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Oh my gosh, you know me. I feel so seen. I would never go on a hop-on, hop-off bus. Is adrenaline– I mean, you say– in the subtitle of your book, you write about adrenaline junkies. Is adrenaline something you get addicted to?

KENNETH CARTER: Well, a lot of the high sensation seekers I’ve talked to actually tell me that adrenaline gets in the way of what they want to do. Will Gadd, who’s an ice climber, first person to climb up Niagara Falls when it was frozen, said if he just wanted adrenaline, he’d just run back and forth on the highway.

What he’s looking for is something really kind of unique and cool to do and to be able to contain that adrenaline so that he can focus really well.

FLORA LICHTMAN: I want to go back to something that Wade told us in the last interview. He was like, if the weather’s bad, if I can’t do my extreme sports, I get grumpy. How does that square with what you about thrill seekers?

KENNETH CARTER: It’s something I’ve heard a lot. I think a lot of times, we think about thrill seeking as something a person does. But it’s really who they are. They’re really locking into that thing that brings them that sense of awe, that really wonderful combination of the dopamine and the low cortisol.

And so a lot of high sensation seekers had trouble during the COVID lockdowns, where they couldn’t do those kinds of things. What I suggest for those people is to look for other activities that they might be able to do, whether it’s eating something adventurous or adventure travel.

It also explains why a lot of high sensation people focus on jobs and careers that help them with that. I interviewed an emergency room physician who had a new job as a primary care physician and didn’t really like it very much because he wasn’t exposed to that chaotic environment that his brain really likes. So he started doing CrossFit and other adventure sports to make up for it.

FLORA LICHTMAN: So what about for low sensation seekers? If you go to a movie and see Tom Cruise bouncing around in a submarine where his life is on the line, how do you feel about that? Is that a way for you to get some of that awe without the stress of doing it yourself?

KENNETH CARTER: Yeah, it is. That vicarious sensation-seeking from a really safe perspective is a great way to tap into that. People say never say never, but I have a whole list of things I’ll probably never do. And so being able to experience it through virtual reality or movies is the perfect way to tap in and get a peek into that awe.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Thanks for talking today, Ken.

KENNETH CARTER: Thanks so much.

FLORA LICHTMAN: Dr. Kenneth Carter, professor of psychology at Oxford College at Emory University, based in Atlanta, Georgia. If you want to take that questionnaire and see how much of a thrill seeker you are, we have you covered. Head to our website, sciencefriday.com/stunts, and you can take it.

Have a great three-day weekend. Monday we’re off, and coming Tuesday is the next episode in “The Leap,” a series I made with the hypothesis fund about scientists taking a risk to uncover something new.

SPEAKER: The more pushback I received, the more I knew I needed to do it. This is worth doing because this is how humans are. If something is interesting, we don’t welcome it. We want to believe that. We want to believe that you show someone or show the field, to show the world some amazing data, and everyone gets behind the work that you do. That’s not how it works.

FLORA LICHTMAN: That’s on Tuesday.

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And that is about all we have time for. Lots of folks helped make this show happen, including–

SANDY ROBERTS: Sandy Roberts.

JORDAN SMOCZYK: Jordan Smoczyk.

EMMA GOMETZ: Emma Gometz.

VALISSA MAYERS: Valissa Mayers.

FLORA LICHTMAN: I’m Flora Lichtman. Thanks for listening.

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